when was my Hupfeld Vorsetzer build
Hi all, as many of you know I'm restoring a Hupfeld Phonola Vorsetzer at the moment. I was wondering if any information exists which tells when the Phonola was build. the stack serial number of the Phonola is 7836. if Hupfeld used the same numbering on all stacks they build it is a very early one, as the Hupfeld piano I restored last year which is from 1908 has a number in the 30000 somewhere. Who can tell more about this? regards, Niels

Hi Niels Any chance you could get the exact serial number for the one you restored earlier? (1908 -30???) I thought we could then work back and maybe get it within a 1-2 year range. My player is 36069 and is dated 1914. With a little bit of calculations we could work out an average output per year , then narrow down the year by subtracting the average. A long shot yes , but just a thought. Daniel.

Hi, I found I had the data in a word doc, so here it goes we thought the piano to be build in 1908 or 1909, at least supplied then, as it has a 'Naessens' supplier plate on it. in the end of 1909 'Naessens' started working with 'Duwaer', creating Hupfelds Amsterdam store - Duwaer & Naessens, of which loads of advertisements exist and their piano's are still encountered often,.... so a piano with just the name Naessens had to be from before the end of 1909, then the 88-note instruments, as wel as the dual-scale instruments were instroduced in about 1908, so that dates the instrument to eihter 1908 or 1909. If Hupfeld started to make 88-note instruments earlier, please let me know. ok, now the data: the Lipp piano nr = 4501 (on the soundboard) Stack nr: 30738 footpump/windchest nr's: 25 and 3444 No idea what the numbers on the footpump mean...... if you do,... reply. the piano was bought for approximately HFL. 3250,-- which in 2005 would be around 35.000 euros

Hi Niels My stack is No. 41154 = 1914. Stack No. 30738 = 1908. Stack No. 7836 = 1894 (?) This is just a calculation based on average outputs.Some years may of course had higher outputs then others. Do you know what year Hupfeld actually built there 1st Vorsetzer ?, as if by using the same formula as i have used above , it would make it 1890.....again i don't know how far off that is?. Daniel :)

I'm still not 100% sure about the 1908.... I tried to verify it by using the Lipp serial number, but nothing useful turned up so far.

Just to give you some idea as to Lipp serial numbers : The company started back in 1831. By 1875 the numbers are 8000 and upwards. For the players discussed you are looking for a 5-digit number on the piano not a 4-digit one. Try out these number pointers: 1909 - 29500 1910 - 30740 1915 - 36800 for some unknown reason they start from scratch numbering from single digits in the mid-twenties before ascending again. Many thanks to a friend of mine in the trade with a copy of the "Blue Book" to hand this afternoon! regards Adam

thnx Adam, any idea where to find this 5 digit number on the piano? I don't remember seeing one, as It should have been in the worddoc with the other numbers.

Where to find a serial number? hmmm... Different pianos have them in different places. I've seen the numbers on the case side top edge (lift up the lid), stamped onto a piano key (but sometimes these are the keyboard number), painted onto the iron piano harp frame itself, occasionally cast into the frame etc etc... Sometimes the serial number is carried over onto case parts or partially so. On my Angelus Brinsmead (#59665) the number 665 is stamped on case parts and stack parts (which also have their own number). It's a very early model and everything ws a little more tailor-made to fit than in later years so I think they just stamped "665" as it was quite clear at that moment in time that 58665 was not still on the factory floor and 60665 was not yet arrived. All things being equal I would expect a Lipp to have a Lipp serial number plus (as a different company made the pneumatic action) a seperate pneumatic number. It's also possible some trade / dealer arrangement may have served to obscure or alter a factory number. Many Steck Aeolian players in the UK that were made at the German factory in Gotha pre-WWI were only fitted with players in the 20s - presumed many pre-war instruments sat mothballed in stock for up to several years. Steinway Aeolian pianos are also similar as they were supplied generally unfinished, fitted with players once paid for then the new number informed back to Steinway...I think it was that way round! So there's earlier pianos with slightly later numbers etc etc Do also remember some players are just plain hard to date by numbers. Looking at the piano style and player style is then the most reliable method. regards Adam

but if the 4501 number which is in big digits on the soundboard isn't the serial number? what then is this number. (I'll do a more thorough inspection next time I see the instrument.... (need to set the valve travel of the primaries to the correct value then, I think I've set it to large which is the cause for a lot of the general leakage I can't trace...)

Hi, I tried to regulate the Phonola (more on that in another topic) and I looked for a 5 digit serial number somewhere.... But I could not find one. I know for sure it's not on the upper halve of the piano, I couldn't check the bottom halve as the stack and 'windchest' are in the way.