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Hi Paul and Neil and thanks for the feedback. Yes Neil you are 100% correct in stating that the trill is not been played as its ment to be (with all the copying and editing, i actually didnt take that much notice untill another poster on here pointed out to me that its not performing to its best) I played the roll again today and the trill is still not performing as its ment to be.I filmed the clip in "Concert" mode which i feel , gives the Duo-Art its proper balance and theme. When i play the roll in "Dance" mode the trill works perfectly , so it shows it does need that extra bit of suction.But if i was to play the whole roll in "Dance" mode , some of the more gentle parts come across louder then they should. So help me out guys , is there an adjusment i need to tinker with to get that little extra bit of suction , without destroying the careful balance of the Duo-Art setting?. Thanks for any advice Daniel :)

The very first thing you should check over is the piano action, not the pneumatic action. It may be that the piano action is out of regulation. Next check that the stack is regulated to the piano action. There shouldn't be a vast amount of lost motion space between the two : the pneumatic stack should engage the piano action as instantaneously as the keyboard action does. In the video I can actually hear the valves operating at the trill so it's possibly action regulation or valves (see later). Also, at a rough guess I'd say the accompaniment levels were set a little higher than they need be with the theme a little too far behind. If the piano action all seems in good regulation move on to the Duo-Art -*test*-('") roll. Generally, run the full electric Duo-Art -*test*-('") roll and check over the various dynamic settings. The basic point of reference for a Duo-Art is the zero level the proper definition of which is demonstrated by the -*test*-('") roll. (Other reproducing systems use different reference points : Hupfeld's levels are ascertained by reference to the mf system and the AMPICO is far easier setup by simple reference to empirical vacuum gauge settings). Remember to keep the piano at the normal setting when -*test*-('")ing and not "dance" mode or any other as the settings modify the dynamic range in a non-linear manner so -*test*-('")ing and setting in "dance" mode will make the system respond unevenly elsewhere and also won't -*test*-('") all the levels. The system is geared to play by reference to the "normal" setting and will successfully modify to the other settings in a pre-set fashion whilst utilizing the normal roll codes. Anyway, see if the same faults can show up with the -*test*-('") roll. There is also a repetition -*test*-('") which is faster than the trill in the Grieg Nocturne. This should replicate the fault if there is one. If all this doesn't resolve matters you may need to adjust the stack valve/pouch assembly as the valves are just not switching the stack on effectively. My guess is you will make a very good improvement without too much trouble. You should be able to quite easily improve upon this performance of the Grieg without too much bother. I'll see if I can get a recording done in London in a few weeks of this roll for comparison. It's one of my favourite pieces to play by hand also, just one of many amongst Grieg's umpteen fine "Lyric Pieces." I don't think there's a vast number of them recorded on Duo-Art (Grainger recorded "To the Spring") but they're well worth playing through as they're all great! The book on Grieg by H T Finck (written in the early 1900s) is still the best book on Grieg's life and works. Hunt it down! regards Adam

You must be a very good pianist Adam - I'm sure its not the easiest piece to play. I like Griegs lyric pieces too - and have a few ordinary 88 note rolls -including the fantastic 'To the Spring' (An den Fruhling), which must have been very popular as it turns up often. I do find playing pieces like this - and the Nocturne - quite difficult, as you have to try and put some sort of articulation in the repeated chord accompaniment and still reconcile it with the melody. I have no doubt it sounds a hell of a lot better when you play it properly by hand! Good Luck with the trills Dan - I am always amazed at how the regulation on a piano shifts over time. One of those regulating screwdrivers is well worth getting hold of as it makes it so much easier, you can even make some adjustments (ie hammer letoff) without taking the player mechanism out Cheers Neil

Grieg isn't a particularly hard composer to play from a technical perspective. The Nocturne isn't particularly demanding, trust me. In fact better than that! Why not have a go at it yourself! Here's the music! http://imslp.org/wiki/Lyric_Pieces%2C_Op.54_%28Grieg%2C_Edvard%29 The Nocturne is at page 13 of the pdf file. Try the first piece also, you'll certainly have heard the "March of the Dwarfs" in there also which was orchestrated by Grieg latterly I think. "To the Spring" again isn't nearly half as hard as it looks (Lyric Pieces Op.43 if you fancy downloading thoses fro free off the same site). Erotikon, Lonely Traveller, Little Bird, To the Spring, all wonderful. You'll be playing it in no time! Once you've played through that why not go on to some Edward MacDowell "Woodland Sketches" - he's the American Grieg! The pianola has difficulty conveying this music effectively (you really need more than 2 levels of dynamics at any one time) : far better to play these by hand! Enjoy! Adam

Hi Adam, and thankyou very much for a very well written detailed response (just hope you dont send me a bill now in the post!...lol) I do have a DA Test roll here and will go though it more thoughly and see what happens.I will do just one step at a time and try and get this small hiccup fixed. Im very strick with my instruments and untill this is corrected i feel like i have a substandard player in my home....lol. Yes im a perfectionist and i cant help that :lol: Regards Dan ...........

Thanks for the link Adam - the Grieg really is way beyond my ability - but I have found some nice pieces which I can try on the same site - including the Aria from the Goldberg variations which I might just manage :) Cheers Neil

G'day everyone I've been doing some experimenting with my "trill" problem , and this is what happens. A)On normal mode/DA mode the trill starts but dies out very quickly at normal roll speed (the keys move and the valves operate but there is not enough push to hit the strings hard enough). B)On a slower speed with the above setting, the trill works just as required. C)If at anytime i use my temponamic knob or theme levers , the trill will work. D) In Dance(loud) mode it works no worries, but spoils the song (of course) . E)In normal mode and the lever set to Themodist , the trill works. I think the problem lays with a small pneumatic.It has a spring adjustment on the front and also a screw adjustment underneath.In normal mode/DA if i slighty push this up with my finger , the trill works just fine and the volume is not effected in anyway. I have placed a picture with a red arrow below , can someone inform me more about this pneumatic and its principles?. Many thanks Daniel :)

Trills and things
Hi Dan, I am no expert on Duo Arts so hopefully someone will jump to the rescue and explain fully what is going on...... The pneumatic that is arrowed in your picture is not activated during the playing of Duo Art rolls. It is open to atmosphere at that time. Only when playing 88 note rolls is it open to exhaust (vacuum). It seems to operate a lever which is attached internally to one of the knife valves in the regulator pneumatic (one of the two large pneumatics in your picture), it also seems to be connected with the action of the temponomic knob. I imagine that by pushing on the pneumatic as you describe you are allowing more suction into the expression box and so allowing the pneumatics that operate the piano action exert more force on the hammers. I have the Duo Art service manual and other publications which explain (mostly) how the system works. If you are interested in getting any of the literature let me know and I can direct in the right direction. Andy

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